Good Advice

Reply to: Are you in the U.S., Canada or elsewhere? Law and legal precedent varies with jurisdiction. That said, it's common in the U.S. for a contractor to sign a "release of liens", certifying there are no outstanding debts owned for the project, before receiving final payment. What does your signed "contractor affidavit" say? If your owner-contractor agreement states that changes to the contract sum may only be made by written change order signed by both parties, and you have not been presented with nor signed any change orders it would appear that his request has little or no standing. For best advice, consult your real estate attorney. Good luck on your project.

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Reply to: You can get honed granite, which isn't shiny. There are a few that are dense enough, even when honed, that they don't need to be sealed, if you're not picky about color. Any decent sealer should work fine, in general, especially with one of the less porous stones. Hard glazed bisque tiles are amazingly durable. Yes, you can etch the grout with acid, but it's hard to notice. It does need to be sealed, but shouldn't need to be sealed over and over. Any kind of metal is also wonderfully durable, though if it's thin, it can dent. Most counter grade metals, stainless steel, pewter, zinc or copper, don't dent, at least not easily. They do get a patina, however, though, with the stainless it's just small scratches, as Fori mentioned. If you have it brushed, or just go over it lightly with steel wool, the scratches just blend in. Quartz is made out of stone dust in resin. The resin yellows over time and can stain, but if you choose your color wisely, you won't really see it. I think it can also be honed. Soapstone comes everywhere from fingernail carved soft to tenpenny nail tough. It's impervious to water, and oil will kind of stick to the surface, so you can make an oil seal kind of like seasoning a pan--for looks. It needs no sealing for use. The hardness determines the likelihood to scratch or chip. Some don't. Many do. Pyrolave and other enamelled lava stones have all the advantages of stone combined with those of tile. The seams may be more noticeable than with granite, but it wears like iron. It's also hideously expensive. Concrete and concrete terrazzos are popular choices. Some etch like the dickens. There are ones that have polymers in them to make them more like quartz. Colorants can be added, and when it's all sanded very smooth it's nothing like a parking structure floor, or a Brutalist anything. :) It shouldn't scratch or chip without a great deal of provocation. Wood also develops patina, but is surprisingly durable, though not heat resistant like the others. There are really lots and lots of good, durable choices. There's no single magic bullet. Your best bet is to go on a shopping trip, even if you have to travel to somewhere with good showrooms, and put your hands on the alternatives, see them under the lights, and torture samples with vinegar and knives.

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Reply to: We just had to go through this decision so here's what I've learned on the subject. As I answered in one of your other threads, we have Cedar Valley installed on our house.I looked into the differences between paint, solid stain, and semi transparent stain and there's some debate on which product is superior (of course). Paint is the most protective from the elements, but it's a surface coating. That means that it will last longer, but will peel towards the end of its life, estimated between 8-15 years. It will need to be scraped and sanded before it can be reapplied so it requires a bit more labor. Good applications include a coat of primer and at least two coats of paint. It will be the most obscuring in terms of wood grain and wood color variation. Solid stain is second most protective from the elements and UV damage, but unlike paint, it soaks into the wood. Life is estimated between 5-10 years and unlike paint, it should fade, not peel, towards the end of its life. Application doesn't require a primer. There's some debate on whether it behaves more like a stain vs sitting on the surface like a paint with some anecdotal evidence citing peeling solid stains. It does less to hide grain texture, but obscures wood color variation well. I'm not familiar with semi-solid stain but it probably sits between semi-transparent and solid. I think two coats of semi-solid is equal to one coat of solid so I'm not sure what the purpose is. Semi-transparent stain is the least protective due to its low pigment content. It also soaks into wood and does very little to hide wood grain texture and wood color variation. Expected life it 3-5 years and the product will fade instead of peeling. Both solid and semi-transparent stain should be easier to reapply since no scraping or sanding is required. You didn't mention transparent stain, which tries to preserve the wood quality while keeping the natural wood color. Least protective to UV effects, and obviously does nothing to hide woodgrain texture and color.

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Reply to: The right side of this home has not been painted in 20+ years and the trim, doors and windows needed a lot of restoration before the painting process could begin. The front bay windows, frames and trim along with all trim areas under the porch had the paint completely removed with heat guns and chemical remover to ready for further preparation. Since this house was built before 1978 all proper EPA Lead-Safe guidelines were followed during the restoration process. Once the paint was removed the surfaces were power sanded with 60cc sand paper to level out all surfaces, cleaned, caulked, windows glazed and primed. The remaining trim on the entire house was scraped, power sanded with 30cc sand paper, cleaned, caulked and primed. All necessary trim surfaces were primed with Mad Dog and caulked with OSI Quad Sealant. The left side of the home had been painted within the last 5 years and did not need as much trim restoration as the right. There were many areas on both sides of the home that had rotten trim, fascia and soffit wood that was completely removed and replaced with new. The trim color is Sherwin-Williams Pure White that was colored matched in Benjamin Moore Regal Select High Build soft gloss finish. The siding of the home is cedar shingles which required less preparation than the trim. All surfaces were power sanded with 120cc sand paper and cleaned prior to staining. The home was stained in Benjamin Moore Arborcoat solid Amherst Gray. The porch floors were scraped, power sanded with 30cc sand paper and cleaned prior to painting. The floors were primed with Mad Dog deck fix and painted with Muralo SuperTread urethane reinforced enamel. The color is Benjamin Moore Branchport Brown. With this home being a duplex it provided a little bit of a challenge to get both homeowners to agree and the same siding and trim colors. Once we did every part of the project proceed as expected, finished on time within the 6 week time frame and both homeowners were extremely happy with the finished results.

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Reply to: I realize this is a old thread but I use Aura or Regal Select for all my interior projects. Although they are both high end paint plus primer paints and they are both Green Promise Zero Voc, there are two main difference between Regal Select and Aura. First, Aura is self leveling where Regal Select is not. Because Aura self levels, it sets up fast which does not allow for it to be back rolled. If rolled correctly Aura will give a much smoother finish because of this feature, however if it has been back rolled or over worked, then you will get patchy spots. The second difference is that Aura was designed to use with any Benjamin Moore full spectrum Colour Stories Palette colours. These colours do not have any black or gray tints which causes the colours to change from room to room and in different light, hence the full spectrum. CSP colours can only be mixed with Aura paint. Aura is my favourite interior paint, but it's not for everyone because it sets up very fast. Adding Floetrol can extend the open time but you still need to get the feel of Aura to get a flawless finish. Aura can be tinted to any Benjamin Moore colour but it does tend to colour shift more than Regal Select. Depending on what the clients colour choice and home style is will determine what I recommend. Aura is best for CSP colours, sun walls and bright stairwells for a smooth finish and it has slightly better coverage than Regal Select. Both are highly cleanable when cured.

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Reply to: I went with a warm white: BM CC-130 for all the woodwork, tinted ever so slightly by my painter for a bit of warm color on the walls of some rooms. Never had one regret about it and would do it again in another house. The color is sometimes called eggshell or ivory white. Woodwork in semi-gloss oil base, walls/ceilings in flat latex. Local decorator remarked that the woodwork texture looked "like butter" after painting. If you decide not to tint the wall paint and put the paint on straight out of the can, it will appear slightly darker than woodwork, a pleasant difference; saves a lot of trouble finding another color for the walls. Marks wash off walls easily too. Good luck, Rai

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Reply to: For anyone reading about this question--installation is key. I've had 2 Miele washers installed in my 1906 house on the 2nd floor, without any special setup. First had noticeable vibrations at the super high spin speeds that the washer can do. It was workable and we had it that way for about 12 years,doing a ton of laundry, but it did vibrate some @ high speeds. Second machine W3038 has VERY amazingly little vibration/noise even at its highest spins. Not really a difference in the machines, its that the second one was installed by Miele while the first one wasn't--I thought we'd adjusted the levelling well, but obviously not as well as the professional Miele installer. I was very pleasantly installed to find out how little it now vibrates or makes noise.

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Reply to: I was told at Lowes the Samsung was the best. for a second floor installation in my 1927 bungalow. I did it as a stackable. I still feel vibration when washer first starts spinning. Unfortunately in less than a year the vibration caused the drain line to come out of the wall and water water. Then the expanding dryer vent wiggled out of the wall. I figured out after all this that I or my builder should have thought of an access panel behind the unit in the hallway. Easy to fix these issues and access to water shut off valves too.

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Reply to: My first impression is "COOOOOOOL COMBO!" I love the idea myself and the zinc set off from the white marble could be fabulous! We have white marble ourselves - Calacatta Classic - and as fabulous as it is, it's the combination of it with other things that make it the kitchen work so well (like the silver/grey metallic automotive paint finish on our hood cover). I say GO FOR IT - in a BIG way!

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Reply to: Sorry...I forget myself sometimes and think everyone knows this stuff! Plus, I was on the verge of a nap! Order of operations: demolition framing (exterior windows and doors) rough plumbing and HVAC rough electrical insulation wall board and finish prime wall board install cabinets interior trim (doors and windows) counter top templates (have appliances, sink and faucet on hand) tile floor toe kick install Interior trim (baseboards and shoe mould) prime and finish paint trim and finish paint walls install counter tops install backsplash install lighting and electrical trim install plumbing fixtures and HVAC install appliances The appliances cannot be installed until the counter tops are in...slide in range goes on top of the counter top! Refrigerator has nothing to do with counter top, same with hood and microwave. Under mount sinks need to be given to the granite fabricator at the time of templating, same with faucet. Granite guy installs sink, plumber installs faucet and hooks up sink (same time as hooking up appliances) Electrician is there at the same time as plumber and HVAC guy to hook up electrical to appliances and trim out switches, outlets and lighting.

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Reply to: Time and Materials is not appropriate for a house project that will involve multiple subcontractors. The advantage of Cost Plus a Fee is the drawings don't have to be complete when you start so it saves time but it requires more project management on both sides of the contract. The advantage of a lump sum contract is better cost control for the owner but for the cost limit to be accurate and enforceable the drawings must be very complete which takes more time. But those are the extremes; it is possible for a Cost of the Work Plus a Fee contract to have a Guaranteed Maximum Price or even a Shared Savings. Cost control is achieved by bidding the subs that have been approved by the owner. If the owner selects a bidder other than the low bidder, the GMP is increased by the difference in cost. A Shared Savings gives the GC the incentive to keep the cost down. That is how multi-family/commercial/institutional buildings are built but those contractors have gone to school to learn how to manage the time and cost of projects. Since it is possible to competitively bid the Fee of a Cost of the Work project based on the initial interview, the Fee is often lower. I've seen as low as 7% and it was from the best of the bunch. With a competitive GC Fee bid, competitive sub bids and professional project management, Cost of the Work is usually the cheaper approach but if it is not managed properly it can be costly for the owner. In a Lump Sum contract it is wise to exclude labor from Allowances and put it in the base bid since it should be possible to determine the scope of the labor in the contract documents even if it is only a unit price.

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Reply to: The risk is on the consumer for a cost plus bid. The work costs whatever the work costs plus the contractor's fee. There is less incentive for cost controls to be first line thinking. This is the most transparent form of any contract. If a contractor thinks the project will cost 500K and will add his 23.75% on top of that 500K, then if he estimates wrong, and the sub's bids and materials cost 600K, you pay that plus his %. The risk is on the contractor in a fixed bid. Especially in an old house. If he thinks that the project might cost him 500K to do, he might bid 600K to cover unknowns. Or he might bid 700K because he knows the red tape that will happen if anything untoward is discovered. Or, he might have a bunch of ''unknown conditions'' written into the fixed bid, that would turn a lot of it into miniature cost plus portions inside the fixed bid. Which would up the end costs considerably. Which is basically what ''allowances'' are. They are guesses as to what that part of the project will cost. If you have a $10 allowance for engineered oak flooring to be stapled down but want site finished American walnut, the materials costs go up. But, the labor costs do too as they were based on the original type of material in the allowance. Time and materials isn't ever used on a large contract. That's for the kid down the street who you pay $5 an hour to rake leaves plus the cost of the trash bags to bag them. A time and materials home build that you think would cost 500K would come in at 1.2M. Dragged out slow work would be profitable.

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Reply to: @Virgil Carter Fine Art On the surface, the difference between the Maestro and Diva is that Diva is a Rocker while Maestro is just a push switch. Diva and Maestro both have dimmers. Maestro also supports some programming of the switches so that you can dim to 5% of many fixtures and you can set light trim levels. Caseta also supports this functionality. Caseta is also a push button. Diva Switch Maestro Switch Caseta ELV Switch For me personally, not caring about the position of the switch was a good thing:-) It can take me hours to leave my house if I notice something askance.

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Reply to: Another good option, possibly less expensive and completely customizable, is CabParts. They were featured in an article in Fine Homebuilding, used for an architect's own DIY kitchen. I very nearly got these, but ended up getting Barker cabinets with unfinished doors, which we then had a local craftsman stain and finish. The Barker website made ordering far easier (than CabParts) which left me feeling more confident that I'd ordered what I needed. The price was very close to Conestoga, a bit more than CabParts. Here is a link that might be useful: CabParts website

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Reply to: If you are moderately handy ... check ana-white.com for base cabinet plans. You can alter the sizes. http://ana-white.com/2012/01/plans/36quot-corner-base-easy-reach-kitchen-cabinet-basic-model Here is a link that might be useful: 36

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Reply to: I've looked at most of the above mentioned. Ikea: Too limited on sizes (e.g.: 3 drawer base only comes in 15, 18, and 24). Barker: more expensive than KCD Cliq: no unfinished Conestoga: no unfinished, plus you have to buy through a dealer Home Depot: a little more expensive than Menards, but same generic oak in limited sizes. How did they paint out? On your recommendation I googled KCD BBB and found a site called Customer Lobby (never heard of them) that had a string of good reviews. So that looks promising...

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Reply to: Barker cabinets has good reviews here and moderate-low prices. CliqStudios (although components app. not made in USA) have good reviews but I don't think come unpainted. Conestoga has also gotten good mentions here, can be bought from various vendors (I got quote from Cabinet Authority) and I think but again not sure can be purchased unfinished-- also in the moderate-low range, about like Barker.. Did you google Kitchen Cabinet Depot BBB? that will bring up any Better Business Bureau complaints or ratings.

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Reply to: I've used F&B paints and 3 of their grays in two houses now and love that paint. Here is the Lamp Room Gray powder room I did. I've been super happy with Pavilion Gray which I used on beadboard in our utility hallway. (Scroll down to see pic). Another popular gray is Blackened, which I used in my work room though during certain times of the day it appears to be a very pale blue. Additionally, the ceiling is done in Pointing and the trim in White Tie Cornforth White and Hardwick White are two other terrific grays, though they are called whites. I don't see "Pale Gray" on the current F&B color card but there is Light Gray, which has a slight green undertone. There are additional pix of grays on the F&B site under Inspirations . Allison's French Gray kitchen is a longtimeGW favorite. The thing with F&B colors is that, to varying degrees depending on the number of pigments in a specific color, they can look very different during the day and evening as the light changes. Also, some have very pronounced undertones while others don't. The free color card and the website colors can appear quite different than the paint. So I've found that working with the fan deck or sample pots are best to see how they will look in any specific space. But I do feel the results are worth the work and it's really fascinating to learn about color through using this paint.

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Reply to: I looked at the Teal Jones website. If you are buying the "West Coast Craftsman" shingles, then you are getting a #2 grade. #1 shingles do allow any flat grain or sloped grain or grain that is too wide. Clicking on the West Coast Craftsman link below, in the Extractive Bleeding paragraph it says "A high percentage of flat grain present in this grade of shingle......" The Teal Signature shingles are probably #1's but it does not say. In my experience, any boxed shingles are usually always #1's. I'm not telling you to not go this route, but flat grain shingles, shingles cut too close to the butt of the tree, and shingles without straight grain will not lay flat for very long and will crack and cup. Plus, do you really want to repaint your house every 3 to 5 years? I'm not anti-shingles, but I did manufacture them for over 20 years. I want you to understand what you are getting into. Please take a closer look at some of the shingled houses in your area and try to talk with the owners to get a better idea of what works and what does not. Here is a link that might be useful: West Coast Craftsman This post was edited by rmtdoug on Mon, Aug 19, 13 at 1:55

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Reply to: There is too much data missing to advise you. 1. Do you have the shingles on hand? Are they uniform in color or do they vary (WRC comes in reddish, yellowish, and blackish, depending on how and where the trees grew and the ages of the trees). 2. What grade shingle are you applying? #1's are all VG grain and all heartwood. #2's will have knots in the top 1/3 and can include flat grain and some sapwood. Any grade below #2 should not be used for siding unless you want a very rustic look. In all cases, the color can vary. Retaining fresh-sawn color for WRC with any degree of UV exposure will be very difficult and the maintenance will be a killer.

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Reply to: The cause of color fading is primarily UV light and that will not be uniform. The later darkening is caused by fungus and it will also not be uniform. Trying to prevent these natural processes from happening is difficult and expensive. Siding stain is essentially the same as paint except the synthetic resin binder that interacts with the linseed oil to form a tough surface film in paint is greatly reduced in stain. With both materials, after the linseed oil and mineral spirits mixture penetrates the wood and the solvents start to evaporate, the oil combines with the resins and oxidizes leaving a tough surface film in paint and a soft pigment finish in stain. One of the major advantages of stain is that the lower resin content allows the oxidizing of the oil to occur within the wood. Cabot makes a very low-pigmented, solvent-based, oil-modified (linseed oil modified with alkyd resin) stain in 4 colors called "Wood Toned Deck & Siding Stain" (#3000 series). It slightly darkens the wood and provides a flat translucent finish with UV and fungus protection. The finish is supposed to slowly weather to a natural wood hue. Field applying stain to shingles that have already been factory dipped in stain at the factory is a bad idea and not recommended by Cabot so you should ignore your architect's advice on this matter. A second coat of stain must be applied while the first coat is still wet otherwise the second coat cannot penetrate the wood and may leave a sticky top coat. The same problem can occur with an excessive first coat. Stain does not build up a finish like paint. This issue can also make frequent recoatings difficult unless the surface is very carefully prepared each time as recommended by Cabot. There are pressure treated shingles that will hold their color and resist decay but I have not used them. Here is a link that might be useful: Cabot Wood Toned Deck & Siding Stain

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Reply to: What color did you want? What is the purpose of bleaching the shingles if you want a color? Stain is not like paint that forms a protective film so more than 2 factory coats is not necessarily beneficial. Cabot stain should last 10 to 40 years depending on what you think shingles should look like. The old timers didn't put anything on red cedar and replaced them when they split or curled. Ask to see that unusual spec on a house.

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Reply to: Try to find a hardware store still carrying the old product to finish your work and then leave it to weather naturally. I always thought of the the bleaching oil as giving the cedar shingles a "head start" on the weathering process and a "boost" on their longevity, but always wanted the shingles to look as naturally aged as possible after 5-10 years. Some subtle variegation and differential weathering is normal, natural and (to my eye) more authentic.

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Reply to: I also sided my house with pre-bleached white cedar shingles. Every 3-4 years I've reapplied the Cabots Bleaching oil with great success, until this year. After making it halfway down a wall I ran out of the oil and went to buy some more only to find out that Cabots no longer makes Bleaching Oil (oil) and now only makes Bleaching Stain (acrylic). The colors and transparency do not match and you cannot apply the stain over the oil for 6 months or more after you applied the oil per Cabots. They are eliminating all their true oil based products due to high VOC content in favor of the water bourne products. As an architect I was unaware of this change (probably should have been as it's no different than every other product) and am now stuck with what to do next. I need to stain my house but not sure what to use and hoping that I can find a stray can of the bleaching oil to at least finish the unfinished side of my house. In the future I'll need to find another alternative. Any suggestions?

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Reply to: Shingles often rot from behind. We have found a bleaching oil gives them a nice start to the silver grey everyone likes and wants but we use a Rain-Slicker drainage plane behind them to help keep them from rotting from the backside and they perform well even in saltwater environments like Newport RI!

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Reply to: Cabot Bleaching oil, Weathering stain and all colors of Semi-Transparent Stain are the same basic material with different amounts of solids and pigment. Bleaching Oil and Weathering Stain both have a much greater solids & pigment content than Cabot's other similar stains. The choice between the two is a matter of color preference IMO. Bleaching Oil starts out looking warmer and more natural than Weathering Stain and turns a more subtle silver gray later so it has been preferred by New England architects for many decades. After 10 or more years I doubt there is much of a color difference. If you can't decide, mix them together.

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Reply to: Eastern white cedar shingles should not be installed without a stain on all sides. Cabot Bleaching Oil isn't just bleach & oil and Cabot Weathering Stain doesn't cause any weathering. It's more accurate to think of these products as lightly pigmented (semi-transparent) stains that allow the natural grain and texture of cedar to show. They are linseed oil and petroleum distillate stains with the same cosmetic goal: to make cedar take on a faded silver/cold gray appearance as if exposed to oceanfront winds and sun. The difference is that Bleaching Oil has a warmer gray pigment but also has a bleaching ingredient that accelerates the lightening of the wood to a silver/cold gray color in 6 to 12 months, whereas Weathering Stain has a pigment color that is already a silver/cold gray color. They are two products that essentially lead to the same result. It is my belief that Bleaching Oil has more pigment and uses its bleaching ingredient to eventually achieve the final silver/cold gray color and that Weathering Stain uses less pigment in order to reach the same silver/cold gray color immediately. People desiring a silver/cold gray look but who don't want to wait for it will choose Weathering Stain instead of Bleaching oil. Cabot suggests that people mix these two products 50/50 in order to give the Bleaching Oil a few months head-start or to delay the Weathering Stain for a few months depending on how you look at it. It seems like a lot of trouble for so little benefit to me. Architects often specify Bleaching Oil on white cedar shingles because white cedar shingles have long been offered factory dipped in Bleaching Oil by high grade manufacturers like Maibec or because it lightens and creates a more consistent color on red cedar shingles. An alternative is to use Cabot Driftwood Gray Semi-Transparent Stain #6344. I specify a lot of white cedar shingles and they have all been factory dipped in Cabot Bleaching Oil. Those on my vacation house in southern Maine are 14 years old with no rot but minor fungus darkening primarily due to being in the trees on a lake. I've seen these kinds of shingles last 40 years. In my opinion they're the lowest maintenance cladding available. This post was edited by Renovator8 on Sun, Sep 28, 14 at 19:00

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Reply to: Housebuilder4, I'm sorry I never responded to your post --- I never was notified about follow up on the thread (I forgot to check that box). I only found it now by doing a google search about cedar shingles today! It probably is too late to help you with an answer, but for now and future readers, I will. The difference I have observed between bleaching oil and weathering stain is very slight. The bleaching oil treated houses that I have observed had slightly more variation in the graying process going on. The weathering stain houses had consistent gray color - no variations on the whole house. The gray value in both treatments seem like the same. With the bleaching oil it looked like a shadow was moving across the house. Hope this helps you or someone else! Now, what I'm searching out is how long before you need to reapply the weathering stain. One of my neighbors hasn't reapplied in 7 years but I was just investigating....

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Reply to: Our KD/GC uses Candlelight Cabinetry. Overall I'm pretty satisfied with the finish and the drawer/roll-out shelf construction (all wood with dovetailed corners). Because most of our base cabinets have roll-out shelves, I didn't notice until this past weekend (when we started to pull things apart for cleaning) that the interiors of the cabinets and the fixed shelves are made of particleboard covered by a vinyl coating. To me this looks a bit cheap considering that we're doing a six figure kitchen renovation. When I spoke with our contractor about it, he swore that he'd discussed it with us (I'm pretty sure he didn't), said he only does 1 or 2 jobs/year where customers specify plywood boxes, and then went on to describe why particleboard is better than plywood. I understand the logic of not using plywood boxes, but the part that really bothers me is the vinyl covering. It seems to me that if they used all-wood shelves and put a veneer over the interior of the boxes, then you could have the best of both worlds.

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Reply to: Cabinet shops just LOVE you folks! :) Insisting on paying 20% more for functionally equivalent products is any marketers dream. Everyone seems to have drunk the Kool-Aid down blindly. So, you just have to wonder why those pesky Europeans use nothing but "fake wood" in their cabinets and have millions of satisfied customers whose cabinets do not disintegrate over night. And you have to wonder why the majority of folks in the trade actually purchase furniture board cabinets for their own homes and put that 20% upcharge in other features. At the risk of being pilloried by the wood snobs (not that there is anything wrong with being a wood snob! LOL!) I will attempt to separate facts from myths promulgated by marketers. (BTW, you did hear about the radioactive granite didn't you? We can sell you some lovely solid surface that won't have that problem.) Fact #1. Particle board isn't furniture board and plywood isn't plywood. "Particle board" is the crappy 14 pounds per square inch stuff that those "decorator" tables are made from. You know the ones that fall apart when you set a sweating cold drink on them. Furniture board uses similar size wood particles but uses much higher pressures and better glues. The higher pressure does a much better job of locking the wood fibers together, much like the difference between a hank of wool waiting to be spun vs that same wool that has been locked together into fabric by felting. The glues used could contain formaldehyde, or not. Most commercial cabinet companies use low emitting furniture board that is pretty green. Some use zero formaldehyde furniture board, for which you'll pay an up-charge similar to plywood. As for plywood, well there are a lot of different grades of the stuff on the market. All the way from Chinese imported stuff that's full of voids and formaldehyde (and who knows what other toxic substances!) to high quality Canadian or European no VOC emitting cabinet grade stuff. Most manufactured cabinet companies use the low to no emitting good quality stuff. Most custom guys, well the vast majority of inexpensive "custom" guys don't exactly use the top grade stuff. How bad the plywood is will depend on how cheap your quote is. They have to cut costs somewhere to give you a cheap quote, and the cabinet boxes sound great if they tell you they are "all wood"! Ha! Cheap Chinese plywood is so much better than good quality particle board you know, because it's reeeeel wood! You have to actually ask about more than just the type of box materials. You have to delve into their quality and sourcing as well. Fact #2 Cabinets using both furniture board and plywood will both meet the fairly rigorous KCMA standards. These tests simulate years of actual real world usage. (Read up on it if you like.) If both are constructed properly with the appropriate methods for their type then they will look unfashionable to you before they have any structural failures from ordinary wear. KCMA testing has factually shown this to be the truth. Abuse is another story. None will stand up to abuse. The hinges will pull out of both boxes if you use the doors to lean on while you are rummaging through the interior and other abuses. Now, you can overbuild them to your hears content if you have the budget. I think titanium cabinets would be just super!(They'd be fireproof too, Antss!) But you will get no "better wear" returns for the money spent in the real world. You do get one-upsmanship bragging rights, if that kind of thing is important. And, it really IS important to some. Fact #3 Neither plywood nor furniture board is "real wood" if you want to be absolutely factual. Both are wood by-products. One uses very thin layers of rotary cut veneers glued in cross linked layers while the other uses smaller particles of wood that are compressed into a crosslinked solid. The particle board is actually more wood per square inch than is plywood if you want to get technical about it. It has more wood fibers per square inch than plywood. It's heavier and denser. Which brings us to another trade secret as to why cabinet makers and installer like plywood better other than they can charge you more. It's easier on them to work with because it's lighter. Not because it's so darn superior as they would have you think. The terminology is clearly chosen to make you think YOU are inferior if you don't want to "upgrade". Fact #4 There are minor , but not truly significant, performance differences. Plywood is superior to furniture board in it's resistance to deflection. It will hold more weight on a shelf without sagging. That's why you don't see Euro cabinets (which have used furniture board for MANY decades with no problems) larger than 36". If you have plywood shelving, you can span further distances. If you don't have any cabinets larger than 36" or plan on storing your entire cast iron collection on a single shelf then this performance discrepancy should be a non-issue. The water resistance thing is also a bit of often repeated propaganda. If a flood/leaking faucet/water event occurs, both substances will be affected. Plywood will delaminate and MDF will swell. The degree of affectedness will depend on the amount of time that the material is in contact with the water and if the materials are fully sealed on all surfaces. Shelving and side walls should have the cut sides sealed, and many cab lines don't offer that. Same with the portions of the cabinet that touch the floor of the underside of the base. This is where using a custom maker can work to your advantage. Or, just do it yourself for the sink base and the cabinet adjacent to the DW after they've been delivered. You could use polyurethane or whatever leftover paint you already have on hand. A couple of coats on the exposed ends and then caulk the interior seam where the cabinet floor meets the cabinet walls. I'd do this on plywood or furniture board. I personally have a painted (on all 6 sides) MDF panel in one of our sunroom windows (To be able to put a cat door into it.) We don't have enough overhang on the sunroom and the wind just creates these great sheets of water that run down the window and drown the panel and leak inside from the cat door. It was supposed to be a "temporary" solution, but that temporary solution is at least 15-16 years old now. Exposed to every rainstorm. Zero problems. An I have a plywood bathroom cabinet that had a bit of a leak a year or so ago. It looked fine at the time. It's now showing where the water delaminated it. Mold grew between those delaminated layers. It's DISGUSTING. And we thought it was just fine right after the leak. It didn't have any visible damage. There is one other area where there is a bit of a performance difference. Plywood will hold screws better than furniture board will. But, that's very misleading. You really don't use screws to assemble furniture board cabinets. Remember what I said about the right hardware for the material? Camlocks, doweling, glues, and just a few screws designed for furniture board are what the right hardware is. If you use the wrong hardware, of course one is "superior" over another. Yhe absolute truth is that well constructed cabinets of either kind will ling outlast your attempt to create a "timeless" looking kitchen and will become visually dated to a certain era and thus unfashionable. They;ll survive longer than your wanting a white Shaker kitchen will. Poorly constructed cabinets of either type may not even outlast their install before you have problems with them. You simply cannot say that one style is "better" than the other without using a LOT of qualifying statements. I replaced crappy thin plywood cabinets in my kitchen with middle of the road furniture board ones. The ones I have now are certainly better than the ones I had, and are certainly lower in perceived quality than Plain and Fancy ones. The only real long term wear difference that anyone would be able to tell down the road is for the doors, NOT the boxes. That;s where most of the difference in cost between cabinets comes from. P&F just have absolutely lovely finishes. And that's why I went with furniture board boxes in a brand that offered better finished doors than a budget line. (How much do you think KD's make? LOL! We're probably all on a budget for much less than most of our clients!) I only wish I could afford top of the line cabinets. But it would't be for "better" boxes!

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Reply to: I had brand new cabinets built for our river house last year. Nine months later the house flooded. The cabinets were totally submerged under water for just over 24 hours. I am talking 7 feet of water. The cabinet doors and faces survived. I had one extention made for the cabinet next to the frige, because it was too short. It was made out of plywood and survived. Every inch of MDF had to be replaced. It absorbs water and then swells. It won't dry out fast enough to survive like wood. All wood trim and doors survived throughout the house. The flood mitigation people say that people lose cabinets to all sorts of household flood issues when the cabinets are MDF. Plywood almost always survives according to them. The cabinet maker built everything back with plywood. He is the same cabinet maker that built my new kitchen in the main house. He didn't even ask, he built it out of plywood. Even though we will never flood from the river as high as we are here. He now feels that kitchen cabinets should be plywood due to water risks within the house.

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Reply to: What must be kept in mind is that a major portion of the cost of a house is from subcontractors and material suppliers and the owner doesn't usually see the markup from the subs or suppliers nor does the GC unless a Cost of the Work contract is used and it stipulates that the same type of contract must be used for the subs. I have heard of this but never seen it used. In a Lump Sum contract the owner bids the project with GC's who are presumably motivated to get the lowest price from subs and suppliers in order to win the contract and therefore the owner has a good idea of the total cost assuming the drawings are well prepared and complete with no allowances. The GC will not make the same OH&P on each item in the Bid and might even lose money on some items so it is not appropriate to think of what you are paying for each item. Your concern in a Lump Sum contract should be the total project cost; buying the pieces of the job out is the GC's concern. Don't be a shopper. In a Cost Plus contract a GC is selected by capability and perhaps the best fee proposal and provides a Budget for the estimated cost of the work and later usually shows the owner bids from multiple subs but not their markups. An allowance is a small Cost Plus contract inside of a Lump Sum contract. If the section that describes this sharp deviation from the base contract only establishes a Fee markup, you are likely to be exposed to potential cost overruns with little recourse. If the Allowance section is carefully written the owner can avoid subcontractor and supplier sweetheart deals, kickbacks, uncredited discounts and excessive hidden markups. - An Allowance should be for material only; the cost of installation and labor should be bid in the base contract. - When labor and installation are unavoidable in an Allowance it should be in the form of a Unit Cost (per fixture, per s.f., hourly rate, etc.) (The cost of labor for the GC's own forces should also be listed in the contract) - The owner should have the right to propose or reject subs and suppliers. - The owner should have the right to cancel a material Allowance, buy the material and have it delivered to the site. - The Allowance amount in the contract should be required to be treated like any other "change in the work" requiring a written Change Proposal from the GC for the owner's acceptance and later altering the Contact Amount by a written Change Order.

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